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soothsayer
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PostSubject: First Person Shooters   Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:38 pm

Gunz

I don't like FPSs. I've been playing them for how many decades now? Since Wolfenstein 3D... 1992... through today, nothing has really changed; heck, the weapons are pretty much the same! This is definitely a "if you've played a dozen, you've played them all" kind of genre.

I own a bunch of them, mainly for the Playstation. Black, Resistance 1 and 2, Borderlands 1 and 2, Homefront, Killzone. Even have a few for the computer. Bought Black just because I heard it was good (and it was in the "best of / on sale" pile); Resistance for the story (Soothsayer Jr MK 2 bought the 2nd), Vader bought the first Borderlands (Soothsayer Jr MK I bought the 2nd), I bought Homefront for the story, and Killzone because that's some damn good AI. But truthfully, aren't these all the same game?

That is why, with sad heart, I purchased yet another FPS yesterday, from Goodwill. And the sole reason I did so was because someone on this board used to rave about it. Granted, this isn't the PC version, but rather for the PS2... but I bought it because he would swear how great it was. I plan on seeing for myself tonight.

The game? Red Faction. It better be good, or else I aims to collect the $1.99 I paid for it Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: First Person Shooters   Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:41 pm

RED FACTION! How I miss walking around the shipyard yelling that! Don't know how the console version would fare, but I did read that it kept the multiple paths due to terrain demolition. That was basically the only thing that set it apart, and the story. All the other shooters of the time were as you described, but this one gave you the option of "going around" the linear gameplay by blowing holes in stuff!!! Twisted Evil The story was pretty standard sci-fi, but really well executed... though I have read that sequels have resorted to graphics and tech to push sales, and the story has faltered. I even read the story CHANGED between two of the sequels, but I don't know. Hope it pans out for ya! At the very least, blow holes in stuff!!!

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PostSubject: Re: First Person Shooters   Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:43 pm

AND, since we're on the subject and I spent some quality time shooting last night, I will still insist that System Shock 2 is the best FPS 'hybrid' ever to grace the 1's and 0's.

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PostSubject: Re: First Person Shooters   Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:27 pm

I will say that Red Faction does jump right in the thick of it from the get go, doesn't it?
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PostSubject: Re: First Person Shooters   Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:15 pm

Red Faction!

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PostSubject: Re: First Person Shooters   Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:43 pm

5/8

Red Fraction!!!

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PostSubject: Re: First Person Shooters   Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:20 pm

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PostSubject: Re: First Person Shooters   Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:43 am

This video speaks for itself...

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PostSubject: Re: First Person Shooters   Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:57 am

I've gotten too used to the autosave feature on most 'newer' games. Got to the point in Faction where you climb up an elevator shaft, crawl on the ledge, and climb a second shaft. Jumped to the open door, fell all the way down...

No big deal, I says, it'll load at the last check point. Menu pops up.

"Load at last save, or quit game?"

WHAT? *grumble*
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PostSubject: Re: First Person Shooters   Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:17 pm

I avoid shooters, we know this. But when a game from a series of shooters comes along and they're calling it 'Skyrim with guns' my interest gets piqued like a mofo. Watch the vid if you have time, and tell me, does this not look like one hell of an awesome game?!



PS..... "Save your game often!" Razz Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: First Person Shooters   Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:48 am

Dear lord, did the guy actually grab hold of a wire cable bare handed to slide down?! Back up, watch, rewatch, go to youtube and make full screen... ahh, okay, never mind.

Does seem as if this game is rather all-encompassing, doesn't it?

I, too, have a dislike for FPSs (as if my original post wasn't enough). However, the one which I thoroughly enjoy is Dead Island. Here, watch the announcement trailer, then I'll type some more.



Okay, f'd up, huh? Then there's this E3 trailer that shows some game play (more on that in a bit).



There are four distinct character classes (a fifth, with download); each class has its own combat style. Then there's a tech tree to help develop your character, granting bonuses and such. Plenty of missions, both main story and side quests.

Talk about weapons: if you can pick it up, it's a weapon! Weapon mods and customizations (oh my goodness, the mods!)... remember in Skyrim how there could be the same weapon, but of differing rank? Same here! You also have to make sure you upkeep your weapon, as they will break. You can also gather bits all over the place to make something unique (a bomb laced with human flesh to attract zombies, for instance). I've been using a high end sickle strapped with some wiring and batteries; yep, a sickle that does electric damage as well. Swipe at a pool of water with an electric weapon, all characters standing in the pool get shocked!

Vehicles: I've only come across two vehicle types, so I can't say what's what about them.

The one cool thing I like about this is weapon strikes; shoot a knee, the leg comes off at the knee (or hip, pending on shot). Same location effects with arms. Fighting a rather tough enemy? Take out his legs so he can't come at you (though he can crawl). Take out his arms so he can't hit you (though he can still bite and slam). And yes, aimed just right, you can perform a decapitation.

My favorite combat technique is to run at the enemy at full speed, kick them in the chest (they'll either drop or stagger back), allowing me time to get a few well placed swipes in (I'm using the Asian martial artist, preferred weapons are bladed).

Oh, I should also mention first aid kits are scarce. Ammo is scarce. Scavenge, save, trade / purchase from a local contact.

It isn't a perfect FPS. But it is fun; haven't had this much fun with an FPS in a long long time.
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PostSubject: Re: First Person Shooters   Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:40 pm

I remember the zombie game in the mall was supposed to have the "anything can be a weapon" concept, but never played it. Dead Island does look pretty decent... for a shooter... but when it comes to zombies I'm still hoping to get my hands on Lollipop Chainsaw. Hey, I should at that to my list! I certainly wouldn't turn my nose up at a Highschool of the Dead game either! Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: First Person Shooters   Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:49 am

The perfect FPS

What would make the perfect FPS?

Let's start with the enemy.

An enemy has to be stronger than you, or else he isn't worth fighting. Whether he achieves strength through numbers, weapons, or intelligence, the enemy has to be something or someone that will seem unbeatable. I liked the enemy AI in Homefront and Killzone; they would shoot from cover, holding the guns either above their heads or from the side of corners, and on occasion toss out one of their own to use as a decoy. I don't like the AI used in earlier Metal Gear games or those of Assassin's Creed; for the reasons, check out 'crunch's video in the Assassin's Creed thread (brilliant!). Likewise, the enemy has to bestow some sort of intimidation factor as can be seen in Batman, Silent Hill and Dead Island; there are times where you know you are walking into a trap, and you don't want to. Lastly, I want an AI that will use the same tactics I do: crawl under vehicles, crawl through duct work, scout around and then find an ideal spot and wait.

Weapons don't make the warrior. I know this defeats the purpose of fun and the FPS genre, but the one thing that irritated me with the FarCry video above is when the character says "I've never shot someone before." There's quite a few games out there where the main character is like that, that he's either never shot a gun before, never handled a knife, never operated heavy equipment, and so on. Sure, it's easy for anyone to pick up a gun and start shooting, but that doesn't mean you should be effective at it from the get-go. Have it set up where, when you go to camp for the day (or pretty much whenever your character can rest / take a break), your character can break down his weapon(s). Have him clean the firearms, disassemble and reassemble with no penalty. Have him practice quick draws, shouldering, hip shooting, target practice. All of this go towards that particular firearm's familiarity rating; the more familiar, the better the shot (whether it be towards range, rate of fire, reload times, improved target lock, improved stance). Have it so the player is able to place points towards whatever aspect of the firearm he wants improving on. Oh, and the more you use that particular weapon, the more points you get as well, but only towards that weapon.

I will survive. How many remember paper based role-playing games that allowed stat increases? I'm thinking of games such as Runequest and Call of Cthulhu, but I'm certain that there are more, just like there's probably video games that do this. Because this is a FPS and not a role playing game (although, with the likes of Skyrim, the distinction is blending). Have a list of improvable skills, such as climbing, hiking, swimming, fire building, herbs, potion making, and so on and so forth. Almost like with Skyrim and all the skills, these will improve automatically with use; you can't just collect enough points and boost your skills in potion making if you haven't made a potion. This is done so that your character will begin to flesh out and act the way you play, and will improve in those things you feel necessary. Like to climb trees and shoot from above? The more you climb, the quicker you climb, the more you can carry while climbing, or even climb one handed (using feet, climbing tree, other hand holding something or someone). Swim underwater for longer distances, hold your breath longer while scouts are looking for you. Make your own burn relief or anti-septic or or or, with greater degrees of effectiveness.

It's all in the numbers. When you first make your character, have it based on numbers; yes, I'm taking away another example of role-playing games. Strength allows for *gasp* weight allowances (no more carrying 50+ weapons with matching ammo!) and weapon control (a stronger person can handle a Vulcan mini-gun from the hip much better than a weaker one, who might not even be able to lift the damn thing). Dexterity allows for dodging, jumping, and better use of bladed weapons (you can't dodge bullets, but you can make sudden turns quicker, as you dodge and weave to your target). Constitution allows for higher hit points, greater chance of shrugging off lesser blows, and endurance (think energy bar). Intelligence would go a long way to handling firearms (skill modifier) and plant / animal identification (potions, herbs, natural toxins). By making your character the way you want to, you won't be shooting at the TV to 'move faster!" or "I can't believe you let that hit you!". These stats would be a one time thing, as the skill points will add to your character's depth.

No rotating boxes. No one ever sees a rotating box floating a couple feet above ground in real life and exclaims "Alright, health!" Get rid of obvious boxes and pick-ups. Leave medicine where it should be expected (Dead Island does this real nicely), not hidden under a fern leaf that you have to crawl through a log to get. And, as a gun person (not a fanatic, but as a simple owner), I sure as hell don't leave my ammo outside: I keep my ammo in a safe and secure area (in a cabinet in my basement). No ammo crates rotating nilly willy in every area of my home or town. In fact, depending on the type of FPS, and thus depending on the type of enemy, ammo could either be scarce or plentiful... but the ammo type may not necessarily fit the gun(s) you are carrying. I hope that this understanding of meds and ammo also translates to weapons: you will not find weapons of any sort just lying around that are in excellent / working order. You would have to scavenge from the fallen, loot from outposts.

Rambo is not real. Ever play an FPS where three enemy targets empty their magazines into you, and you simply stood there like a man and took it? Or how about when they emptied two magazines apiece, causing you to duck behind a picket fence for a few moments so you could heal up? I'm looking at you, Call of Duty, Modern Warfare, and Resistance players! One simply does not walk away, or limp away, or crawl away, from so many pieces of lead making mince meat of his organs. One doesn't simply tell the bad guys "hold, I need a break... I'm just gonna sit down for a moment". One shot, one kill. *grumble* Okay, this is a game, I'll give you that: five, maybe ten shots, one kill; but it all depends on the shot (if you get shot in the head, you're still going down no mater what). On the flip side, just because you shoot a bad guy once does not mean he's going to face instant death. This isn't Star Wars where the bad guys are crappy gunners who die at the slightest scratch. Oh no. Bad guys don't become bad guys for the uniform and fringe benefits. They know weapons. They know knives. They know how to fight. And by god, they will show you a thing or two about fighting! In my opinion, I'd say Fallout 3 did this rather well (as far as enemies being the better shot).

What else is there? Skill development, character generation, weapons training, realism... I think I've got it covered. Nope, wait a minute, there's one thing I've forgotten.

Let me tell you a tale. It's all about story, about plot. Why am I taking up arms? Who am I fighting? What's in this for me? I like Dead Island because you are trying to survive, plain and simple; only later to you begin to help others, and as you go about, you begin to find... things... which leads you to believe that this wasn't an accident. There's a purpose for you doing what you're doing. I don't like all the WWII games out there (did you know more Nazis have been killed in video games then throughout all of WWII?), but at least that gives you the reason why and your motivation (as does every other FPS war game). But come on, give me something to motivate me THROUGHOUT the game. Why did my character decide that the best course of action to infiltrate the outpost was by driving through the front gate, and not dropping in from the trees in the back? Put multiple paths in the game! Give me choices and options on how to reach my objectives! If I want to do something, let me... if not, then don't! With this said, then allow for there to be a story based on those decisions, a'la Mass Effect.

...

Okay, now I think I'm done. The only difference between my ideal FPS and an ideal role-playing game are in the details. I'd want to see a role-playing game as described here, with the inclusion of a Sims type element (to make your character feel more real). I could really take this FPS a step further and allow for camera / sensor controls; you dive, the character dives, you crouch and hold the controller above your head, your character crouches holding the gun above his head... put you in the game! Okay, know what? I AM including that in my list here! Give me a game with camera and sensor controls!


Last edited by soothsayer on Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:34 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: First Person Shooters   Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:56 pm

Shadowcrunch wrote:
I remember the zombie game in the mall was supposed to have the "anything can be a weapon" concept, but never played it.

Dead Rising. It's a decent game. My ex-girlfriend and I were playing through it when stuff went south. I haven't looked at it since.... Sad (still a good game though)


Last edited by VaderXanth on Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:57 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : refined quote)
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PostSubject: Re: First Person Shooters   Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:10 pm

Rather than quoting and clipping the hell out of a decent sized post, I will just say I agree with everything Vader said about first person shooters... except that middle part about FPS heroes eating far too much bacon. In my opinion, games in general just need more bacon... as eye-candy, as inventory items, as health... hell, even as ammo!

But seriously, there are many examples of many of the issues Vader pointed out, but only a VERY few ever used MOST of the topics in a single game, and that really is sad.

System Shock 2 let you level up how you wanted (3 different sci-fi versions of classes!), repair your weapons, hack (like hacking, not like slashing), fight, and solves puzzles. All in the name of a damn compelling storyline! I know where almost every bad guy is (no randomness back then), and it's still more fun to play than most modern "any game with a gun."

Stalker did something... I remember reading about it but I don't remember the details... it was RPG-ish, but it was all behind the scenes. The game calculated how many shots were fired, how many times you scored a hit, weapon types, ranges of bad guys, and a slew of other info you had no clue about, and it used these stats to improve your chances. It KIND OF rolled dice in the background, and factored the results around your crosshairs. When you first start out, toting your little pistol, from 20 yards out MAYBE you would hit 2 out of 10 shots... obviously from 5 feet away they pretty much gave you the freebie. By the middle of the game, you could manage a head shot from 50 yards... but that's about when the hostiles started wearing riot helmets and such! lol! So, it had some of the elements, a great story, a VERY limited inventory system, and all of the character stuff happened for you just by you improving your play skill.

The OLD Tom Clancy games. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed.... um... Rainbow Six Las Vegas 2? I think that's right. But, as Vader stated, "my screen is flashing red every time I get shot! I better hide and wait for the red to fade!" The range of CLancy games going from Rainbow Six (original) to the first Ghost Recon... 1 shot 1 kill, no pansy respawn. You went back to the menu and checked the command map to see if you should plan a different strategy! Take a tactical armor suit and MAYBE you could survive 5 or 6 shots. I still remember taking a screenshot of 11 shots to bring me down, and my buddy Paul laughing his ass off saying it was probably a record.

But I do agree that 1 shot kills (on the player) would be too much for "normal" players. Unless you gave them a chance (in single play) like have the player DIE, show the bloody animation, then allow them to rewind 5 seconds before impact. Give the player JUST 5 seconds to rethink, or dive/roll forward instead of trying to fall sideways through a doorway. Obviously, this would just get silly in multiplayer...

Okay... blah blah... yeah there's a lot of FPS-X on the market, and they all seem to be getting worse, relying on graphics and "realism" above story, gameplay, and mechanics. As we've seen before, that's what makes money, and it's far easier for a company to put developers on a money maker than a new idea that might potentially flop. Damn the Man!

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PostSubject: Re: First Person Shooters   Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:21 pm

I'm fairly certain that Vader would be pleased with the praise you gave him regarding his highly detailed post.
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PostSubject: Re: First Person Shooters   Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:25 pm

Shadow was referring to the post I haven't written yet? cheers
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PostSubject: Re: First Person Shooters   Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:32 pm

Could be, could be. Hard to tell with him sometimes.

scratch
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PostSubject: Re: First Person Shooters   Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:57 pm

This here image is the problem with most FPSs.

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PostSubject: Re: First Person Shooters   Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:15 pm

soothsayer wrote:
This here image is the problem with most FPSs.


Exactly! They worry too much about making the guy and his guns look THAT realistic, yet fail to develop the story behind WHY he has so many weapons, where he found them... what are his motivations? Wouldn't it be easier to carry those weapons AND travel by taking that plane in the background? But hey, the grass looks so real! Even the cracks in the concrete... damn high quality textures! And they probably skimped on the story so much that they hired a guy with an Australian accent to voice act him! Razz Laughing taunt 2

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PostSubject: Re: First Person Shooters   Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:54 am

I'll have to agree with Vader on this one, as the guns do look real... and one can almost smell the smell of fresh cut grass!
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PostSubject: Re: First Person Shooters   Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:10 pm

soothsayer wrote:
I'll have to agree with Vader on this one, as the guns do look real... and one can almost smell the smell of fresh cut grass!
Vader? Did you make a similar comment to mine about the realism of the screenshot Sooth posted? scratch

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PostSubject: Re: First Person Shooters   Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:49 pm

Really? You have no clue? Sheesh!

Go back a few posts... Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: First Person Shooters   Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:40 pm

Oh dear lawd.... I was wondering what the hell Vader meant about the post he hadn't written yet. I will blame my phone. Since I actually had to work at work this week, I was unable to fire up the ol' lappy, and when I was spot-checking the forum and scrolling on the droid, the pics kept overlapping (avatars), and I saw the N7 in front of the mondo post... and considering Vader was putzing with Unity through an FPS book, I assume he's giving lots of thought to what would go into an ideal shooter. So between the phone and the assumption (which makes an ass out of u and soothmption), I have created a Face Slap

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PostSubject: Re: First Person Shooters   Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:16 pm

We were wondering how long it would take ya, you big lug!
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