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 Soothsayer in Chains

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PostSubject: Soothsayer in Chains   Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:48 pm



Alright, so the title is a play on one band's name, and there's a video for a different song, although both share a similar theme. I am talking about chain, but of a specific sort: chainmail.

Now, I know that we here already know what chainmail is, but you'd be surprised to learn of how many people I've bumped into that don't. This part is for those folks. Chainmail is a type of armour made of, that's right, chains, interlocking chains I should say; don't want people running out and donning fireplace screens now, do we? If you want more specifics, follow this wiki link.

Alright, now that that's done, I can go on with it.

I had Shadowcrunch make me a tool known as a mandrel, which is a fancy name for a hand crank used to crank out coiled wire used for the chainmail. See this fine illustration I've just found!



The only difference between mine and what you see (pretty much) is that the hole I am using to thread my wire through is located on the end furthest away from the handle, and it did not come with a base. I asked 'crunch to just make me the hand crank, which he did in a great manner (he made a nice handle!); even though I vocalized to him my thanks, I just want to take a quick moment to thank him again... it was a great job indeed!

While sitting at home, I was mentally building myself a device to hold the crank. I needed supports for the crank (that's a given), but I also wanted supports to hold the spools and coils of wire I would be purchasing so I wouldn't have a tangled mess or spools moving all over the place. As I was building it in my head, I had an epiphany: what I wanted was an upside down end table, bar stool, or even a chair. I would drill holes through the chair legs, insert the crank and dowel! Luckily for me, the thrift store closest to me was still open; drove over there, and lo and behold, they had a chair there that fit my needs!

One saws-all and four drill holes later, I had this.



As you can see, the crank holes go all the way through. Not so with the dowel portion of things! One hole goes through, the other is only halfway through the leg; this supports the dowel, helps it from sliding out. As it is, the end that is on the "open" leg I had to drill a hole through as well so I could slip a piece of wire through as a cotter pin.



Oh, I should probably mention that the hole I drilled through the crank is just big enough for 14g galvanized wire. About $6.80 for 100 feet at the local grocery store / hardware center. With that wire, I had to cut the coil into smaller sections; ever have a tangled Slinkey? Same problem here. Best part is I found just the right length of wire to cut loose! This much wire...



Makes this length of coil...



100 feet may sound like a lot, but dear lord, imagine my surprise as to what 100 feet of hand cranked ready-to-cut chainmail actually looked like. I was not expecting this, not at all! Oh, you can also see my current tool set for the chainmail crafting: needlenose pliers, standard pliers, and aviation snips. More on the tools after this image.



'Crunch told me about this, but I didn't listen. All the professions out there, the ones with how-to blogs and sites on crafting chainmail say to use aviation snips. Having experienced this first hand, I say bullshit. I'm certain a smaller gauged wire (thinner stuff has larger number, so when I say smaller, I actually mean larger. Or something) would work just fine, but since I had the 14g collecting dust... Oh, I should also say that using standard diagonal cut wire cutters don't work as well either; can't get enough force on the tip, and the finished coils are too narrow for such a wide head. So, what I'm now thinking is this...

I want to take the snips and somehow either weld them or affix them (metal hose clamps?) to a board, and then put a pipe on the free handle: slip coil into the snip, push pipe, a little lever action, and snip snip snip. I'll try my mandrel with a thinner wire here shortly, see how the snips fair before I commit myself further.

Heh. As I finish typing this, Soothsayer Jr is cranking away, making me some more coils; you wouldn't believe how much he likes this device (plus the fact it's going to make armor)!

--EDIT--

Aviation snips cuts though 19g wire like no one's business.
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PostSubject: Re: Soothsayer in Chains   Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:02 pm

I was wondering: if I were to grind away a portion off the head of the snips so that one of the cutting ends could fit inside the coil, would it still cut? The pack of aviation snips I bought was a three pack (one left, one right, and one center cut), so it isn't as if I'd be in need of buying another snip to try this out.

Any thoughts? Or are people of a general consensus that I should stick with thinner wire?

...

Just read a bunch of websites. Seems that most chainmail is 16g, with 14 usually reserved for combat scenarios. That's fine by me, I can stick with that. Oh, and one can buy a 1/4 mile worth of 14 g galvanized relatively cheap from most feedmill or hardware stores: it's called "electric fence wire"! AND I read that yes, one can grind aviation snips without too much worry. Just need to find someone with a bench grinder.
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PostSubject: Re: Soothsayer in Chains   Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:36 am

Holy crap, Batman! Was just on the Menards website, seeing as how we have a Menards nearby, and guess what I found?

1/4 mile of 17g (electric fence) wire - $15.49
1/2 mile of 17g (electric fence) wire - $29.49
1/4 mile of 14g (electric fence) wire - $29.99
1/2 mile of 14g (electric fence) wire - $48.99

... lessee, 1320 feet in quarter mile, or 13.2 coils of 100' each (using this as reference to my recent coil purchase). At $6.80 a coil, a quarter mile of the 14g would cost me $89.76! A half mile $179.52! This equals to a 67% savings (1/4) or 73% savings (1/2). Or would that be a 33% / 27% savings? Either way, the electric wire, which is also galvanized, is the exact same damn thing as what one would find in hardware stores, but a hell of a lot cheaper!

But what of the smaller little coils of wire that come with a cardboard backing, surrounded by a clear plastic shell? Having some of those for my Space Lightyear project. I can say that 50' of 18g wire ran about $2.70. How would that compare to the 17g at Menards?

... A quarter mile of wire would make 26.4 50' coils, at $2.70 apiece, would be $71.28, versus the $15.49 at Menards (a 79% difference!) For a half mile, the difference would be 59% (a cost of 142.56)!

**Menards also sells a 250' spool of 17g aluminum wire for $4.99**

My initial reacxt would be that the 17g stuff would be the way to go (being the cheapest), but it is rather pliable. If anything, that would be great to use on smaller / decorative projects. I'm just rather shocked by the fact that I can purchase 3/4 of a mile length of electric wire for the same cost as a 1/4 mile's worth of clothesline wire. Same damned thing, just a different name.

So, for those who were interested in making chainmail but put it off due to cost issues, I hope this shows that cost isn't an issue.

Oh, and here's the link to the Menard's page with the wire. I did have the search limited to our store. I also did a comparison with Home Depot, and I am not impressed. $19.97 for 1/4 mile 17g, $37.97 for 1/2 mile 17g, $33.13 for 1/4 mile 14g, and $74.00 for 1/2 mile 14g. Did you notice that it costs more to by a 1/2 mile length than it does to buy two 1/4 mile lengths? Nice. See that, Vader? Shop at Menards for all your chainmail needs!
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PostSubject: Re: Soothsayer in Chains   Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:59 pm

Doing yet some more reading online, this time checking the prices on buying rings. A one pound bag of 14g galvanized goes for $6 and up (minus shipping / handling). After checking my coils and stuff, I ascertain that a pound would equal about 50' of the wire. Using the numbers from above, a quarter mile length of wire, if made into rings, would be worth $158.40... a net gain of $128.41 (or $267.81 if using the half mile).

Think about it. We all start making stuff, anything really. Dice bags. Belts. Cowls. Not a lot of the stuff, just enough so we can all get a booth at a fair. Have pictures of our wares, have a couple pieces up for sale. Don't take orders because we still have our jobs and families, and this would be time consuming. But we sell what we made, or try to. We also sell bags of pre-made rings! There's going to be some people out there who'd buy it. Maybe.

But at least we now have a starting point to determine cost of our products if we make anything for sale.
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PostSubject: Re: Soothsayer in Chains   Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:55 am



The way the guy links his rings is a hell of a lot easier than what I've been doing; time frame would be at about 9:55 and continues throughout the remainder of the video. Did you note how he turns his wire? cheers

This second video, from the same fellow as above, shows you haw to make a coif. I'm only putting this here because this was the first chainmail project I wanted to make. Seems easy enough!



Have at thee!
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PostSubject: Re: Soothsayer in Chains   Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:03 pm

Real quick. Aviation snips suck. Period.

Was at a local hardware store this evening with a coil of my 14g in hand, trying out different cutters to see what would work; that was when I noticed most aviation snips are rated for a specific gauge, between 18 and 20; 14, it seems, was way out. I then noticed a small 8" bolt cutter.

Snip. Huh, it worked. Snip. Snip snip. Snip.

Bought it. Cost around $11.50, so it's probably a couple bucks cheaper at Menards or Wal*Mart. But it was worth it!

AND, following the guy's example from the above video, I've been making links and squares in no time at all, relatively speaking. Yesterday I was working off of some chainmail site, following their step-by-step pictures, and it took forever... and that was with 18g. I made four-five times as much in half the time following this guy's method.

Woo-hoo!
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PostSubject: Re: Soothsayer in Chains   Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:05 am

Gotta give full kudos to you Sooth! You have grabbed this project by both horns and have combined research with development to work on the project at the same time you improve on it. So, now kudoing the work cuz I haven't seen it yet, but kudoing your drive and tactics! Well done! Thumbs Up

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PostSubject: Re: Soothsayer in Chains   Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:00 am

Ehh, all I have to show for my efforts is a nice patch of mail, a bunch of ready-to-go links, and a sore hand from all the clipping. But it's coming along nicely!
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PostSubject: Re: Soothsayer in Chains   Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:37 pm

At least your sore hand has a better excuse than normal!

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PostSubject: Re: Soothsayer in Chains   Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:38 pm

I've been checking out tools and supplies online, trying to find some quicker way to clip the wire that doesn't kill my wrist. Found a couple, but first...

See my above post with Menards and the wire cost? Found something even cheaper, and it's right here in town!

The Tractor Supply Company sells a quarter mile of 14g galvanized "electric fence" wiring for $24.99, 1/2 mile of 14g for $46.99, 1/4 mile 17g for $14.99, and 1/2 mile of 17g for $24.99. That's anywhere between $1 to $5 cheaper than Menards! I'll have to see about picking some up this weekend.

The first tool is homemade, and seems rather useful when it comes to making the coil. It looks like this.



There is a small hole drilled into the jig which the wire passes through. You slip the wire between the rollers, which creates the tension needed when you make a good coil; hook the wire's end so it catches the hole drilled in your crankshaft.



Your shaft fits through the larger hole by the roller. Holding the jig still, you begin to crank; from what the creator said, the bar feeds itself through the hole because of the winding action. He made this jig because he uses a power drill to turn his shaft.



Seems nice, and would probably go quite a ways in making things easier. but quite honestly, making a coil really isn't that hard to begin with where I'd need a jig to assist.

The tool I like, but doesn't fit in with my "cheaper is better" philosophy when it comes to crafting, is a jump ring cutter. What this is, is pretty much a fine toothed rather thin circular saw blade attached to a motor, and is primarily used for jewelry.



Quick, huh? This particular make is called the Ringinator (or something like that. who cares). Doesn't come with the motor. In fact, many of the jump ring cutters don't come with a motor. Still costs over $100, though. Don't forget to buy replacement blades! Those aren't cheap, either; the ones I've seen run from $15 on up. Oh, and they're only good up to certain sized wire; 14g is too thick, you'll either snap blades or need to replace them quite often. Apparently a jump ring cutter is meant for jewelery / decorative stuff (aluminum, 18g, blah blah blah).

A jeweler's saw (those extremely thin bladed hacksaws) were a good suggestion, but seems more time consuming.

As luck would have it, the oldest boy is home today (grounded, doesn't have to go to work), so I'm going to put him to work on clipping rings. See how that works.
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PostSubject: Re: Soothsayer in Chains   Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:58 am

The good news is that all I have left to do is the section of the coif that goes beneath the chin... thirty three 4-n-1 links to make (at the most, less for a tighter fit).

The bad news is, well... the small bolt cutters are crap. Seems with the constant clipping, the area on one of the cutters now has a dip in it; the cutters don't fit snuggly against each other anymore, and as such, I can't cut my links.

Sad

I am going to try something this afternoon, though. Hopefully, I'll have pictures up sometime today or tomorrow of my completed project!
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PostSubject: Re: Soothsayer in Chains   Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:30 am

Okay, so it's been more than a day or two. Pfft, whahevah, I do wha I whan.





There, a completed basic coif (a coif (pron.: /ˈkɔɪf/) is a close fitting cap that covers the top, back, and sides of the head. {definition supplied by wikipedia}. This took approximately 36 hours to make, and weighs in at 4 pounds 10 ounces. Off-hand I cannot tell you how much wire was used, but I can try to figure it out.

Next up would be to blend this into what is called a bishop's cloak; think of it as a poncho that goes half-way down the chest, covering the shoulders and upper arms. I don't believe I'll go that long with it, as my final project would be to make a complete hauberk (chainmail shirt).

This weekend I'm planning on stopping by Menards and possibly picking up a new bolt cutters; the one I have, the one with the indentation is crap. Oh, it'll cut, but the mark is rather unpleasant looking.
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PostSubject: Re: Soothsayer in Chains   Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:13 am

With this all being a learn-as-I-go project, I've learned something that I would like to share.

For anyone desiring to make a hauberk with attached coif, I suggest that you make the shirt first. It'll be easier. You see, I've made a "sheet" of chainmail about as wide as my shoulders and attached it to the front of the coif; it pulls it tight (thus drawing the neck area away from my neck).

This in itself is no big deal, as I'm fairly certain that when I make a matching sheet to put on the back, it would pull it that way... and when I figure out how to link the front and back sheets together, it'll fix itself. But, BUT, I must stress that making the shirt first would be easier.

How?

From doing this, I'd figure making two T patterns would be best, with a gap where the two bars meet (for your neck). Join the two Ts together at the horizontal, and you'll have a poncho. Make a coif, connect, and there you go. But with what I'm doing, I'm going to have to add a triangular piece on each shoulder to give it the proper shape.

Coincidentally, I haven't seen ANY pictures online where a coif was attached to the hauberk. The coif seems to have been made a bit longer, overlapping the hauberk. If I could find a picture, I could figure out what to do. Here's what I've been typically seeing.



...

Something to ponder as I continue, to say the least.

The second thing I was going to mention was the overall cost of materials used for the coif. To refresh memories, the coif weighed in at 4 pounds 10 ounces. I figured out how many links there are for 2 ounces, and figured accordingly. I don't have the exact number of links involved at this moment, but I do remember that the total length of wire used would have been roughly 111 yards. Using the numbers from the wire I bought at Tractor Supply, 1/4 mile equals 440 yards, and that spool cost $25; with that, I can say that the cost of the wire used was roughly $6.30.

Not bad, not bad at all. Going by the site that sells one pond bags of links for $6, I saved myself $24. Doesn't seem like a lot in the grand scheme of things, at least not until you figure I have a lot more wire left over, for the same price as it would have been to buy the links themselves.

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PostSubject: Re: Soothsayer in Chains   Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:10 am

Blew the dust off of the chainmail this past weekend.  It's taken me this long just because making stuff is so time consuming.  I do stuff when I'm bored, I don't want to get bored when I make stuff.

Anyway, yesterday I was antsy.  I wanted to do something, didn't care what, but nothing I started really lasted; it wasn't what I wanted to do.  Went to the chainmail not thinking it was going to last, but it did.  Gathered my container full of loops and some pliers, and away I went.

It took about 3.5 hours (four with the little breaks) to fit together a section that is roughly 5" square.  This means that, in order to put together enough "material" to make a shirt... just the body stuff, no sleeves... I'll need 24 more squares just for the front half; 49 squares total to include the back.  That puts it at roughly 171.5 hours nonstop, or just over a week.

And this is for a standard sized shirt, to come down to the hip!  Add another ten inches in length to bring it down to the base of the groin, you're increasing the construction time by about 73 hours.  Go down mid thigh, an additional 36.5 hours.

And we haven't even touched on the sleeves yet.  At 30 inches in length and roughly 19 inches around, I'm guessing the sleeves will take about 80 hours each.

All of this is considering the fact that the links are already shaped and cut.  Ugh.  In total, a full length long sleeved shirt will take roughly 445 hours.

...

I'm beginning to see why they are so costly!

Now, my initial 5x5 patch consists of 173 links.  At 3.5 hours to assemble that, then that should mean for 445 hours, there will be about 21,996 rings.  Each ring is roughly 1.5 inches in length, making the total amount of wire needed 32,994 inches (2749.5 feet).  Holy crap, that's over half a mile of wire.  That can't be right, can it?  *scrolls down*  Oh.  Looking at my previous post about the coif, yeah, I guess so.

Off my Sheep! me sideways, that's a lot.

So how much is this little project going to weight?  Luckily, there's a digital scale here.  Let me go weigh my patch real quick.

Yay, I'm back.  A 5x5 patch weighs in at .2 pounds. Or 173 links weigh .2 pounds, let's do that instead. 25.5 pounds? Anyone want to check that for me? I suppose I can go online and figure it out. It sounds about right though. Okay, just double checked, and I'm getting anything from 24 to 27 pounds, so yeah, this is pretty accurate.

Back to the hours... 445 hours, divided by 3.5 (for the patch) gives me 127 days. Just over four months, if I were to make a patch this size every day. And that's if all the links are already wrapped and clipped.

I need an apprentice.
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PostSubject: Re: Soothsayer in Chains   Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:57 pm

Earlier this week I ordered a new bolt cutters. I like the one I'm using, but it's just a struggle to use sometimes; I've noticed that it isn't clipping as well as it should, leaving burrs or a jagged edge to the links. The funny thing is, it hasn't developed a dip within the contact point, so maybe all it needs is a grinding... who knows.

But it was an $8 mini bolt cutters, so replacing it was probably inevitable. I can still use it, but without good or consistent results.

So anyway, back to the intent of this post: I ordered some clippers. Went to some chain mail forums, and learned that the clippers that are recommended the most are Knipex. More specifically,  the 71 12 200.

Oh dear god, this tool is wonderful! Using it is like cutting through melted butter with a surgical grade Xacto knife!

It's rated to cut up to 12g steel, so my 14g is not a problem. Also,  the head is constructed out of hardened cobolt, making it a lot harder than the galvanized steel.

Sure, it cost about six times as much as my cheapy, but I'm looking at the results right now and the ease of cutting, and all I can day is that this new clippers is so worth it. If you're interested in making mail, get these!
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PostSubject: Re: Soothsayer in Chains   Sat Mar 05, 2016 11:13 am

soothsayer wrote:
If you're interested in making mail, get these!

Or...



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PostSubject: Re: Soothsayer in Chains   Sat Mar 05, 2016 4:37 pm

Thought of a tool that would make this not so much easier, but rather more convenient. Well, maybe easier would be appropriate, as it potentially eliminates a step / makes a better looking product.

I want pliers with a grooved front, like a rasp or file.  Two of these tools, actually.

Imagine twisting a link into shape after having clipped it; you need to pliers to grip and twist it. Look at the clipped ends. Are they flush? Do they join together nicely, or are there burrs or the clipped angle is wrong? Instead of filling all the links into shape to remove burrs or to make the rIngs appear as one piece (or to join them better), grip the links closer to the clipped edges with my file pliers, and you can file / twist into shape at the same time!

Come to think of it, you won't be able to have the file on both tools, as they would rub against each other, grinding themselves away. But one should still do the trick, right?

I'm thinking a bit of the heavy duty epoxy and a file cut to shape should do the trick to test this idea. As the only other person on here (so far) who had worked with chain mail, what do you think?

Yes, diagonal cutters would be ideal, but not practical with 14g wire. Too thick for all the cutters I've tested.
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PostSubject: Re: Soothsayer in Chains   Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:22 pm

soothsayer wrote:
Come to think of it, you won't be able to have the file on both tools, as they would rub against each other, grinding themselves away. But one should still do the trick, right?


.
.
soothsayer wrote:
As the only other person on here (so far) who had worked with chain mail, what do you think?
Wow, who made those chainmail glove looking things I have? Now I don't know! Who are you? WAIT! Who...am I?

p.s. Back in the day they recommended actual tiny ass bolt cutters like those seen in movies to break into abandoned military bases and such. Those, but tiny ass. Diagonal cutters do the job, but they leave beveled ends that look damn stupid. On a budget, they also recommended a pair of aviation snips, with one blade ground down to fit in the rings, which worked great with straight edges for a little while, until I tried 14g galvanized and copper and the blades would pull apart around the rings and make life shitty. But I'm sure you tested all that and just told me about it since you're the only one... and hey...there can be only one!

***EDIT**
p.p.s... whoops, just reread your post. "only OTHER person" lol! lol! I'm not editing cuz I purposefully came in here to continue trolling your post with the dulcet tones of Mr R Kelly.

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PostSubject: Re: Soothsayer in Chains   Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:22 am

Had a thought as I was making some more larger sections. How easy would it be to make chainmaille over a pattern, instead of holding a piece up, visually measuring things, and try try again? With my current project, you'd think I'd just go out and buy a hoodie and cut away the seams; this way, as I make the maille, I can lay it on the material and instantly know what I have to do.

Next time. Next time.
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