COT2


 
HomePortalCalendarGalleryFAQSearchMemberlistUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Experiments in prime and color

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
Shadowcrunch
Journeyman
avatar

Posts : 902
Join date : 2011-06-23
Age : 41
Location : Wisconsin, USA

PostSubject: Experiments in prime and color   Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:19 pm

For now, not going into a lot of detail on the plan or the experiments, but just to get this thought process started, I post a link that changed the way I'm looking at minis and the whole prep thing. One thing to keep in mind with this link, it's LONG, with LOTS of pictures. You'll be tempted to look at the pictures and read captions, but I recommend actually reading and absorbing. More on this later.
.
.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Priming_With_Acrylic_Gesso

_________________
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://right here...
soothsayer
Journeyman
avatar

Posts : 1417
Join date : 2011-06-30
Age : 45
Location : Right here.

PostSubject: Re: Experiments in prime and color   Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:34 am

Gesso? I guess so!
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Shadowcrunch
Journeyman
avatar

Posts : 902
Join date : 2011-06-23
Age : 41
Location : Wisconsin, USA

PostSubject: Re: Experiments in prime and color   Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:20 am

@soothsayer wrote:
Gesso?  I guess so!

Yep! The very same stuff that gave Bob Ross's canvases their paint holding qualities, and gave his head that weave of the gods!

_________________
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://right here...
soothsayer
Journeyman
avatar

Posts : 1417
Join date : 2011-06-30
Age : 45
Location : Right here.

PostSubject: Re: Experiments in prime and color   Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:23 pm

Has anyone bought any gesso yet to give this a try? Yes? No?

I bought some from Walmart yesterday. I forget how big of a bottle, but it was fairly large, for around $5.00. I haven't opened it yet to check on its consistency.

...

Just walked to the car and grabbed it. Okay, this is Daler Rowney Simply Acrylic Gesso. It's a 16oz bottle, and I was a little off on my assumption on the cost: online store says it's $8.52. Seems it reviews and rates scores around high average to high. Looks a little thick. Thicker than most paints I've used; just shook the crap out of it, and yep, it's thick. I'd almost say ketchup thick. Do we have to thin this? If I remember the article correctly, the answer is no, although some of the commentators did. I'll have to check it again.

The bottle is nice. It's a flip top lid, but it has a plastic tab that locks everything together, so you don't have to worry about spills. The cap also screws off if you need to get your hand all up in there.

The one problem is that it's white. I didn't see any gray or black gesso at Walmart. I did buy a small bottle of Fine Arts Pewter Gray to add to it (fifty cents a bottle), but now that I think about it, that was probably the wrong thing to do. No biggie, I can always use the gray for something else... I just don't like priming in white.

According to the gesso bottle, this gesso "creates a white matt surface with a slight tooth which may be smoothed by sanding." Don't know how that is going to impact small miniatures, but we'll see; I've got some stuff lying around that I can experiment on.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Shadowcrunch
Journeyman
avatar

Posts : 902
Join date : 2011-06-23
Age : 41
Location : Wisconsin, USA

PostSubject: Re: Experiments in prime and color   Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:04 pm

Yes. The Daler Rowney "Simply" line is their answer to making an entry level (crap) line of art projects. For any serious projects, I hatehatehate using anything from the simply line. The simply acrylic paints have the worst coverage and flow of any acrylic paint I've ever used. THAT said.... I started with the following model. I went straight from the bottle to the mini, and used sparingly... painting the layer rather than slopping the layer. Before, wet, and after dry with ONE coat of folkart fleshtone:

.

.

.
You'll notice the gesso, which your great observational skills detected as being "thick," leaves some NASTY brush strokes and smears pretty much everywhere. These smears DO NOT appear on any future paint layers! Paint goes on smooth and slick, especially if the paint isn't some damn entry level line. The gesso did its job wonderfully, as that fleshtone went on smooth in one coat, and Folkart paints have never gotten along well with GW minis. So obviously as a primer goes, the gesso performed its task. To remove some of the thick brush stroke artifacts, I tried thinning the gesso to maybe 25% water. It still paints okay, but like the article author states, it's like it loses some of its adherence... like some of the sharper angles are more prone to rubbing/chipping off with basic handling.

For the sake of speed, I wanted to test the referenced article's attempt at just globbing the stuff on. About halfway down his page, he has the metal mini with the shield that it almost looks like he just dipped in his black gesso, and the stuff dried tight around the details. He/she also showed a mini that was gessoed right over the old paint. Instincts told me this Daler Rowney crap would NOT work like that, and it doesn't. I took one of my old (OLD!) grenadier pewter minis, from 198?, painted in the late 80s, and gobbed the stuff right on that old paint. Straight from the jug, blooped on the mini, smear, repeat. My goal was to cover all small details like the chainmail and finger separations, which didn't cover up, but I had serious loss of detail while wet. Again, before, wet, and after (and lucky us, the after pic turned out like shit!):

.

.

.
Yeah, wow that last pic blurred out so much detail it's barely noticeable what the gesso accomplished. Well, you can see my mini sometime and see the final picture in the ultimate clarity (or whatever your eyes can manage). Taking my word for it, WOW this stuff works great! Doesn't do quite what the Liquitex stuff can do with the detail shrinking and all that, but it covers good, takes paint good, and takes a tiny amount to cover a squad. I have tried Grenadier pewter (old enough to still be pewter!) and GW plastic. Vader has tried Privateer Press white metal, and I believe he has some pics available. The stuff works, even if you thin it a bit. Hell, even if you gob it carefully. Only thing I can think of is don't do half a mini and come back to it after it dries... you will have an extra thick spot where the wet and dry overlaps and you can lose some detail there.

_________________
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://right here...
VaderXanth
Journeyman
avatar

Posts : 344
Join date : 2011-06-23
Age : 44
Location : Marinette WI

PostSubject: Re: Experiments in prime and color   Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:35 pm

I have used the stuff!  Although the pictures are of the gesso freshly applied, it did dry rather well.



Back to top Go down
View user profile
soothsayer
Journeyman
avatar

Posts : 1417
Join date : 2011-06-30
Age : 45
Location : Right here.

PostSubject: Re: Experiments in prime and color   Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:56 pm

Hmm... I was all set to test this one some little plastic Army guys, but it seems that I won't have to now. In looking at your pictures, it really doesn't seem as if I'd be needing to add color to the gesso. I'd still rather prime in gray, but the visual detail really isn't lacking.

The only concern I have with gesso as a primer, and this was echoed in the article's comments, was the chipping, the paint peeling away from the model. I suppose if one is careful with their figures, this shouldn't be too much of an issue.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Shadowcrunch
Journeyman
avatar

Posts : 902
Join date : 2011-06-23
Age : 41
Location : Wisconsin, USA

PostSubject: Re: Experiments in prime and color   Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:35 pm

You know if you dig around, you'll find plenty of examples of paint chipping/flaking no matter what kind of primer is used. Yes, a nice toxic spray primer will adhere best and give you the smoothest finish. The main reason I was looking for something acrylic was to put through an airbrush, which gesso isn't the answer, and I don't feel like paying for something acrylic and airbrush friendly. So compared to a can of spray primer, I'm leaning towards the gesso because:
1. It works
2. Almost no smell or fumes, and the fumes are non-toxic
3. Don't have to "take it outside", AFTER waiting for a clear day with just the right humidity and temp.
4. It works
5. With using a brush, even a big nasty brush, I have control. I decide where to glop, where to drybrush (yes you can drybrush the stuff in high detail areas). Like the article says, you glop too much in a spot, clean your brush and pull the stuff out.
6. Time doesn't suck that bad. Using a standard walmart acrylic "flat detail" brush (from one of those packs of purple handles), about 3/16 wide... going straight from the jug to the mini... and using my technique of glopping, then smearing to cover areas and thin details, I did both sides of a GW sprue in about 30 minutes. Next time will be faster since I've discovered I don't have to be AS neat with the stuff.
7. Cleanup. It's frickin water based.
8. I COULD put it through my airbrush if I was daring. Unlike my last experiment where I put rustoleum primer from a spray can and ran it through my airbrush, the smells and cleanup would be awesome, even if the results were lacking. The rustoleum almost took out my airbrush!
9. Easier to watch Netflix and prime!
10. Easier to touch up, especially if you're painting on a sprue, and you do the cutting later. All those little bare spots can be stabbed with a brushload of gesso and you're done.

Another thought, the problem of paint chipping. Could it not also be said that the right paints and a good sealer could protect the finished product? I mean, if I used straight folkart for all my colors, I imagine I would have lots of little problems popping up, and I don't see the layers being as firm as they could be. I would think a layer of a nice quality paint (GW, Vallejo, Tamiya, one of the Testors quality lines), the layer would seal and stick better. Then hit with a coat or two of a GOOD sealer and wallah! Or not. I'll let you know once I get some minis that were primed with gesso onto a table.

Do I believe you should try using gesso to prime your minis? Oh... I gesso.... drummer2 (yeah... it's getting old...)

_________________
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://right here...
Shadowcrunch
Journeyman
avatar

Posts : 902
Join date : 2011-06-23
Age : 41
Location : Wisconsin, USA

PostSubject: Re: Experiments in prime and color   Tue Aug 11, 2015 8:13 pm

Update: Since I'm kind of forcing myself back into the painting (I'm having fun, but it's been a while so it's cumbersome), I decided to focus on one dude for detailing before going on a speed run of the rest. Like a mascot for the team. Whenever I get frustrated painting, I can look at this one dude and have a goal and inspiration. I have been spending WAY too much time on this figure, something Vader and I said we were going to avoid this time around. Maybe that's where my potential problem is coming in... or maybe it's the gesso... which is why I'm dropping this possible warning.

So the problem is sharp edges. This is a GW gray plastic figure that was gessoed and basecoated on the sprue. Full thickness, and a bit of my glob/smear technique. There are a couple places on the figure, mostly sharp edges, where I'll be happily painting somewhere else, spin the dude around, and I can see the figures gray plastic again. I do a quick touch up, and a little while later another spot is gray. Repeat, go painting something else, and that first spot is gray again. The paint isn't coming off on my finger while wet, so I have no idea what's happening. I did NOT soap&water the figures first, so maybe the water-based paint is thinning the gesso to the point where it won't adhere anymore? I'm hoping sealant will fix this at the end, otherwise I could see this happening after any movement on a table. Again, maybe it's just this cheap-ass walmart gesso also, but be warned going forward.

I will investigate if this happens on a lot of the figures, or if it's just a fluke, and report back when I know more.

_________________
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://right here...
Shadowcrunch
Journeyman
avatar

Posts : 902
Join date : 2011-06-23
Age : 41
Location : Wisconsin, USA

PostSubject: Re: Experiments in prime and color   Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:12 am

Vader found an article about gesso on minis and it is some damn useful info! I think it explained why my lighter colors aren't covering as well as I like with one coat. Check it! http://www.wargamingtradecraft.com/2010/09/gesso-paint-on-primer.html

And a thank you to Vader!

_________________
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://right here...
soothsayer
Journeyman
avatar

Posts : 1417
Join date : 2011-06-30
Age : 45
Location : Right here.

PostSubject: Re: Experiments in prime and color   Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:10 pm

Discovered a practical application for gesso versus spray on primer: mods.

While it is true that one can always mask off an area, apply putty, or a variety of other tricks, I would think brushing gesso would be just as effective.  As an example, my mercenary warjack...




Normally, I'd spray my model, but I'm thinking that gesso would be better here, as it leaves the chain all nice and free of paint.  I could paint the chain, but why?  On a side note, I should really start painting my figures, or at least start priming them.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
VaderXanth
Journeyman
avatar

Posts : 344
Join date : 2011-06-23
Age : 44
Location : Marinette WI

PostSubject: Re: Experiments in prime and color   Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:20 pm

I believe that we all have many unfinished projects that need attention. I know, for one thing, that I have hundreds of dollars of Warhammer minis sitting downstairs unpainted and in pieces. The same can be said for all of my Warmaching minis. Tank models, aircraft models.... yeah
Back to top Go down
View user profile
soothsayer
Journeyman
avatar

Posts : 1417
Join date : 2011-06-30
Age : 45
Location : Right here.

PostSubject: Re: Experiments in prime and color   Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:31 pm

I'm doing some priming and basecoating tomorrow,  maybe some builds.  Grover is stopping by with his airbrush,  going to try before I buy my own pretty much.

But yeah,  I've got a lot of stuff to still put together;  that entire lot of Tau mecha... a few vehicles... and some Skorne.  Crap load of stuff to paint.

Still with it,  though.

Edit: worth it.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
soothsayer
Journeyman
avatar

Posts : 1417
Join date : 2011-06-30
Age : 45
Location : Right here.

PostSubject: Re: Experiments in prime and color   Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:35 am

@VaderXanth wrote:
I have hundreds of dollars of Warhammer minis sitting downstairs unpainted and in pieces

That like, what, two or three models, right?

Anyway, just as a passing courtesy, I just read that you can add acrylic paint to acrylic gesso to give it a different base. That's actually pretty good, now you can prime your stuff in the primary color without worry... saving yourself hours of painting time. Of course, you'll have to mix this in a separate container and keep track of the mix ratio, but still, not bad.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Experiments in prime and color   

Back to top Go down
 
Experiments in prime and color
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» The morning after pill is green in color
» HuDpobIQ (Mt. Dew) Floats, which color/flavor works best?
» Wait, what's with the color
» Transformers Masterpiece Rodimus Prime.
» VETERANS color?

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
COT2 :: Traditional Games :: Minis-
Jump to: