House rules?

Working on a vassal warmachine map, and I realized I wanted ladders and the ability for small-based "human" models to climb....so I searched in the privateer press forums for climbing rules. I have a copy/paste here from another random player:

The rules allow you to stat, prior to the
start of the game whatever terrain limitations and allowanced you wish
as long as your opponent agrees. We regularly allow the scaling of
sheer surfaces well beyond 1" in height in our games. Such climbing
can only be done by certain models (normally Medium or Heavy
Warjack/Warbeasts with two hands/claws). Movement is reduced by 1/2 and
Pathfinder does not alter this fact for anything over 1" in height. In
this manner, Deathjacks will start to scale castle walls and so on.

The rules for terrain are rather poor in
Warmachine and Hordes. For example, things which fly cannot go over
deep water. It is silly. We agree before every game to disregard it.
It is our opinion that battles are always about taking the lay of the
lan into consideration and thus we always have plenty of terrain
options.

Couple important points, then my ideas. This guy's post was right on about WM being VERY iffy on climbing and terrain rules. Don't know if MK2 addresses this, but since they are STILL talking about it, I'm going to say no. Another point: I can't see medium or heavy 'jacks climbing cliff faces or castle walls...don't care if they have 2 hands. Deathjack...maybe. Miscellaneous warbeast...probably. But to make a bunch of house rules to be model-specific? Egads!

Without any rules or errata with me, just going by memory for rough terrain and climbing/running/falling rules, here's my thoughts for a house rule:
0. Stairs are open terrain for advance or run, but CANNOT be charged up or down.
1. Ladders are climbable by any small-based humanoid model with enough SPD to complete the movement without hanging off the edge (NO RUNNING OR CHARGING!!!).
2. Flat surfaces (i.e. cliff faces, building walls, train cars) are NOT climbable without a ladder (see rule 1)
3. Elevations higher than 2 inches offer +2 DEF from ground level ranged/magic attacks. Elevations higher than 4" offer +4 DEF from blah blah...yeah.
4. Elevations higher than 2 inches offer +1 RAT, +1 range when targeting ground level...normal LOS applies but ground level model screening is nullified. Elevations higher than 4 inches offer +1 RAT, +1 range...cover and concealment less than 1 inch wide (i.e. walls, sandbags, piping...) is nullified and there is no screening (cuz the higher model can shoot down over the obstruction).
5. "Shooters" taking the high ground in/on buildings leaves open the rules for building damage and destruction. Shooter upstairs, jack does enough damage to stairs to take them out, the shooter either sits there or jumps (falling damage!). Shooter upstairs, Jack does enough building damage to cause a collapse, I would say the shooter takes falling damage AND collateral damage using the building rubble ARM as a damage roll POW. Doesn't THAT sound cool?!

Obviously these would need some discussion, rewording, TESTING, and then being written up...hell, if we're going this route I may as well toss a quick reply to explain the already agreed on house rule that we ran with cuz it makes sense. And that's kinda what I'm hoping for with the ladders too, that they make sense (though I know it's hard to believe in wartime people might climb ladders to get an advantageous shooting spot). Anyway, lemme know what you think of this concept! If more of "us" are going to start warmachine/hordes, we should get some of this hashed out soon.

As stated above, here's the house rule VaderXanth and I agreed on concerning ranged attacks. In the Mk1 PRIME rulebook, it states that warjacks and warcasters can spend focus points (FP) to boost attack and damage rolls. That's basically all it says on this matter. While we were playing, we started analyzing the aspects of this concept and decided the rules were a bit too vague when it comes to ranged combat realism. (again, maybe Mk2 addressed this already...)

Our thoughts: Boosting a ranged attack roll makes sense. Taking better aim, taking a more controlled stance, proper breathing, spell concentration...many factors can be focused on to increase someone's chance to actually HIT their target. So spend the FP and boost the ATTACK roll. Damage rolls? Once the bullet leaves the barrel, the shell leaves the cannon, the spell leaves the hand...it's pretty hard to say "AH-HA! With a little O' this and a bit O' that, my cannon shell is that much more deadlier!" Once the projected weapon leaves the projecTOR, it's an uncontrolled object motivated by physics (i.e. vectors, velocities, wind speeds). Boosting a damage roll is like shooting a gun blindly around a corner and AFTER shooting somehow altering fate to ensure the bullet goes straight to a vital organ...which seems more like something you would account for during an aiming process!

To that end, we decided that for ranged attacks, the attack roll is boostable through FP, but the damage roll is NOT. Realistically, this just makes more sense. So that's our first agreed on house rule. Next maybe we'll have some climbing rules...maybe I'll just make the map I mentioned in the last post and see how it goes. Keep you posted!

I would agree that boosting a ranged attack is possible; like you said, controlled breathing, assuming a prone position, anything to make shooting more accurate. So yes, the attack roll would be boosted.

Even with the damage, I don't think a boost would work. A bullet doesn't do more damage because it was aimed better.

Now for climbing...

I like the rule set for Heroscape regarding climbing. One rung equals one tile. So, make it simple... since Warmachine is measured out in inches, make it so that 1 inch vertical is the same as 1 inch horizontal (that's how Warhammer does it, too).

I would say that if the terrian is the same size or shorter than the moving piece, it should be able to hurtle it. It is war, after all... soldiers are trained to do that. However, that should only apply to the small based models.

Medium based can only hurtle objects that are as tall as their bases are wide (in diameter). Why? Look at the amount of armor on them! If they are trying to scale something larger than that, then use the climb rules (use the model's base to determine height). If the model is running, then it should be able to hurtle something equal to it's height, but that's it.

However, a large warbeast (oops! warjack) cannot climb. They aren't built for it. Look at your models; is it physically capable of crasping something in front of it and pulling itself up? In Hordes they do have rules for destroying objects or acting as a battering ram... that's always an option.

I also believe that there are rules for elevation bonuses... I'll check on that later.

I should have been more specific...the general vibe in the privateer press forums concerning climbing state that they are using inches for ladders, and that's what I meant too. But there's also that "hanging over nothing concept." Basically, a ladder leads up to a 6 inch roof, and you have a SPD of 6, you can't do it, cuz it's 6 inches up, then 1 more inch to get the entire base on the roof. I like that...but could also make it where the unit gets that extra inch by sacrificing its action once it's up there...hmmmm. Unfortunately, as I'm working on my map it occurs to me that this opens up a whole new set of variables...well, not really on the tabletop...more just on vassal. Top-down 2D makes it a little more difficult to at-a-glance know if 2 units are on the same level, and the line-of-site loses the height/angle aspect. Eh, I think we'll manage.

Warmachine also has the rules for structural damage, hence my mentioning the building ARM stat. I definitely think that would make a nice addition to any warzone, especially if troops can get on top of structures!

There is also rules for "hurdling," but in WM everything STOPS at 1 inch. Basically, no units can go OVER anything more than 1 inch. That fits pretty close to your small base/base-width comment. So that works fine...it was just the climbing that they completely skipped. And their rules for elevation bonuses max out at the whole 1 inch concept...unless it's a hill...but hills aren't even considered rough terrain (unless they have rough terrain on them)!!! SO...that's why I'm thinking the farther up you go, have more bonuses! Just +1's...no extra dice or any of that jazz. Like Heroscape, where you get one bonus for being above, then an extra bonus if your base is above the other unit's head.

I agree 'Jacks shouldn't be allowed to climb/hurdle/jump/riverdance over anything...but SOME of the warbeasts...maybe. The trollkin beasts, and the warpwolves....long powerful arms, big fingers and opposable thumbs...I can see that.

Okay...yeah I was working on blender animation. And I was working on comics. And I was working on a warmachine map for vassal. And I wanted an urban setting...and it seemed silly to have all these buildings with a ton of dead space on the roofs, so I made ladders and started working on climbing rules. Then I made stairs. Then I made Elevation Tokens. Then things got stupid, and in order to contain it all, I packed my changes into an actual vassal module extension file. Then I learned how to properly use terrain layers in vassal WM. Then I made shadows to better show off if one building was taller than another...cuz it's all top down. Then I said "not every building is going to have a ladder to the roof on the back...some will have roof access from inside!"

Wait...WHAT?! I started getting REALLY frustrated here. In the Prime books, and No Quarter magazine, there's tons of pictures of urban battlefields. Huge multi-story buildings, paved roads 6 'Jacks wide, windows and doors, alleys...Meanwhile, all the "roads" in the current vassal WM module are 1.5 heavy 'Jacks wide. And the buildings....here's two of the largest buildings, with models for comparison:

The one on the right has a nice steeple thingy on the dome, making me think it's supposed to be a church. The other one looks like a barn. Again, these are two of the biggest buildings in the module! Oh yeah, the cobblestone stuff is the roads. These buildings bothered me a LOT...like if they were SOOOO careful about everything else when making this module, was this an oversight? Did they just run out of time? Based on the pic, you have to kindof agree these building arts were NOT made with scale in mind.

Well, already had my own homemade extension so I wouldn't be messing with original files. Time to tweak some art...but the tweaking was only half the problem. There was talk of collapsing buildings to take the rooftops out of the picture. I resorted to all original buildings in blender, and multiple layers for each building. But if I'm going this route, AND incorporating interiors to gain roof access, what about doorways and windows? If you can see through a window, or two, you can shoot through it/them! Oh crap...windows, building damage, rooftop elevation bonuses...starting to sound a little tactical in nature! Oh, and my two (so far) buildings WERE made with scale in mind. Here's a sampling:

Just a teaser...sortof. This map is ready to play as we speak, and the "special features" are all ready by installing my module extension, which I'm calling "Tactical Warmachine/Hordes." I will be adding more art, features, and making a basic rough draft of rules for tactical manhoovers. Yes, I realize I'm not even 75% on the regular rules, but this will add so much realism that I feel most of these games miss...And yes, all of this can be done on the tabletop...would just require a little more planning when making building models! Once I get the rules, I will post here for perusal, and once this gets tested I will post results.

Like the models, nicely done. However, just some added comments about 'jacks and structures. Comments, mind you. Brain storming. Not critiquing.

I can fully understand roof access to some models. Access would be limited to verticle ladders (ones built into the wall), or perhaps a narrow walkway (maintenance), and as such, small models would have reign on the roofs. Some medium based models might also be able to ascend these narrow or confined entry points to gain access. But heavy units? They'd be too wide or too heavy to get to those points!

That'd be like trying to get a forklift on top or your house! Then there's the whole issue of soot going everywhere inside the structure...

Unless the structure was designed for the intended purpose as a fortification or military base, heavies just would not, and should not, be on the roof.

However, I will add this: elevators.

According to wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevator)...

Quote :

The first reference to an elevator is in the works of the Roman architect Vitruvius, who reported that Archimedes (c. 287 BC – c. 212 BC) built his first elevator probably in 236 BC. In some literary sources of later historical periods, elevators were mentioned as cabs on a hemp rope and powered by hand or by animals. It is supposed that elevators of this type were installed in the Sinai monastery of Egypt.

In 1000, the Book of Secrets by Ibn Khalaf al-Muradi in Islamic Spain described the use of an elevator-like lifting device, in order to raise a large battering ram to destroy a fortress. In the 17th century the prototypes of elevators were located in the palace buildings of England and France.

Ancient and medieval elevators used drive systems based on hoists or winders. The invention of a system based on the screw drive was perhaps the most important step in elevator technology since ancient times, leading to the creation of modern passenger elevators. The first screw drive elevator was built by Ivan Kulibin and installed in Winter Palace in 1793. Several years later another of Kulibin's elevators was installed in Arkhangelskoye near Moscow. In 1823, an "ascending room" made its debut in London.

Why do I bring this up? Elevators existed for, it seems, many a century, and were in practical use during the Dark Ages. It would stand to reason that, coupled with the steampunkiness of WarMachine, elevators could be built utilizing steam engines. This, in turn, would allow 'jacks roof access. I would like to believe, though, that these elvators would be located on the outside of the structure, mainly for the structure's interior size constraints.

Then again, I see roof encampment as a defensive measure, reserved to protect a particular object, or simply as a holding position. I can't see 'jacks being used in that fashion.

Anyway...

How would ranged attacks work for higher elevations? Defense rolls? Or would the +2 adjustments be universally accepted? Myself, I'd think that a six in tall building would negate a ranged attack of six inches from anything more than an inch away, but due to ballistics, an attack from a higher advantage point would allow for the normal distance (disregarding elevation). Oui, that would just get too nuts and too complicated rules-wise. Might as well just play WarHammer then!

Shooting out of windows is fine. Going by the concealment / cover portion of the Hordes book, if the model (inside) can see an other model, he can make a ranged attack with no penalty. However, models that are inside cover or are concealed get the +2 or +4 DEF bonus.

The book does state that bonuses to DEF are not stackable. You cannot get a bonus for both elevation AND cover.

Know what? I'm just mentally rambling now. Tired... I'm just going to submit this and be done before I start going all loopy.

My plan for this evening: before I dive into my 5 or 6 other artistic projects I'm going to blend up some more properly scaled buildings, and whip up the rough draft of the tactical mod climbing/shooting rules. I was thinking of recording the next game session as a vassal log file, but since not everyone runs vassal (or will until they can see what it can do) I'm thinking of doing some screen capture-to-youtube and posting the results here. Whether that's just me playing around, or an actual game in process, depends on time and scheduling.

That's the business side. Now...the comments about elevators. I agree that would be an excellent idea, but I won't be adding it. First, based on the rough tech level in the Iron Kingdoms, I would imagine them using 'Jack elevators only where it was needed to get 'Jacks elevated, like a 'Jack factory. Okay, yeah there's dumbwaiters and such...MAYBE government offices would have them...BUT....

I sooo wanted to add a 'Jack factory. Maybe make it half the size of a 4x4 map, and have all the action take place inside, and on catwalks which 'Jacks could get to by ramp and elevator. Unfortunately, the vassal module extension system, AND layer system, AND fog of war system, make it impossible to set that up without changing the original module...which I looked into...but since there's no set rules for module creation, the hierarchy of data is so confusing and multi-directional that in order to understand how to do it, it would be quicker and easier for me to create a new module from scratch (more on that later).

The current plan was to have my multi-layer tactical buildings hide models, like if there's units inside a building, and units on the roof, when looking at the inside layer, the entire rooftop layer with units would be hidden. Again, can be done, but have to completely redesign the original module (imagine trying to reverse engineer someone's theory on Avian Fratastatery without any documentation...). For now, I will do what I can. I will make more buildings, maybe add some more art, make rules for my ladders, stairs, ramps, and elevation tokens, post everything here or on mediafire so anyone can download the extension (maybe include instructions for getting vassal itself working) and then I will move onwards. I will discuss with those I vassal with and see if they want some simple vids or instructions for making further art for the tactical version also...then it can be up to others smarter than me to transfer to the tabletop if they wish...

Funny...the more detail I add to my buildings, the longer they take to finish! Crazy how that works...sigh. I THINK I have one more done now...gotta test last two layers.

Okay, rough draft of simple rules...PDF format attached to this post...that will work pretty smooth with the modified Vassal module. Will post a link to that after I upload it to my mediafire.

I would change one thing... in the stairs section, make it so troops are in open formation; it'd be damn impossible to maintain tight formation.

But, I just told you that over the phone, and you just modified it, so no biggie.

Okay, I posted the PDF of the basic rules JUST FOR THE TACTICAL ELEMENTS THIS VASSAL MODULE ADDS in a previous post. I have uploaded a ZIP to my mediafire account. The ZIP contains: The new version of the original full module, my extension, the rules PDF, and a sample map. Again, this will only really help those who play Warmachine on Vassal, and if you have in interest in trying it, well...give it a few days and I'll see if I can't find a way to better illustrate what this can do for you. Anyway, in the meantime, the link to download the zip is:
http://www.mediafire.com/?uq31z2z2yc8bma7

Hope it works!!!
Edit: OMG...I just tested the link...mediafire has gotten VERY worse with ads. I had a full page ad come up, and in the upper right was a timer counting down like 7 seconds or something. That turned into a 'skip this ad' button, which took me to the download page...there's a LOT of stuff you can click, but near the upper middle is a yellow box that says 'click here to start download from mediafire'...that's the one. It will work for now, but I am sooooo going to find a different free file host!!!

Ahhhh...that feels nice. Got a new online storage space. It's big, faster than mediafire, and the link goes to a page with ads but the text says "your download should start automatically..." and a couple seconds later it was asking if I wanted to download or open the file. Slick...plain and simple...slick. SO, use the mediafire in the previous post as a last resort. Try this! download