Crosstalk with Sooth and Shadow (and anyone else)...

Sooth, after you gave one of my liked animes a rating of "meh" and went on to explain how you liked it, but there were some key things that just didn't add up for you, it made me think. Numerous times I've wanted to argue points, but when I get things fleshed out in my head, I start thinking again. And now, here I am. Instead of just laying out all my points, I plan to drop big ideas, keeping it more like a conversation. Drop a thought, wait for crosstalk... like reddit without douchebags and fanboys. The anime still giving me a thinking man's noseBLEED? Deadman Wonderland. Spoilers ahead.

SO! If I remember correctly, your biggest meh about the show (which I still haven't found a place to read the manga!) is that everything is fine in the murder theme park prison, UNTIL you get into the hidden central cell block, where all the fun is happening. Not going into details on the public section of the prison right now. So the hidden section is where the higher ups are doing experiments on the...don't remember what all the details are with names and powers and such... but the people that can weaponize their blood. Experiments and pay-per-view fight clubs. Your issue seemed to start with all of the super-powered prisoners in this cell block basically running free, and why would the runners of said prison allow that? And I agree, in normal conditions. BUT....

The head of security, and none of the normal security forces even know this entire HUGE section of prison even exists, which tells me it's pretty damn secure. Seems like only a couple obscure prisoners even know of rumors of it, and one of them is the masked dude from that section of prison. So, you have your money makers inside a huge facility from which there is apparently no way in or out, you have them poisoned so they need your candy to survive, so they are in your complete control and will fight to the death for you to keep on going. BUT, you do realize just how dangerous they are, and could be if they joined forces. So YOU, Sooth, are the mysterious dude in charge of the prison, running the experiments and fights. How do YOU keep them from rebelling, and keep them playing along? How do you make them complacent enough with your murder game system to not try to escape? (I realize all these things start to fall apart, but hypothetically...) I know prison is prison, but you can't trust security to handle that section, so what do YOU do differently?

That's what I'm wondering cuz you didn't like the way it was set up. What would make it make more sense to you, taking everything into account?

Yeah, even though it's been a while, I think that my biggest complaint was the ultra secret level. Normal everyday prisoners are poisoned, forced to wear an explosive tracking collar, required to compete in daily competitions where one is either rewarded with death or a 24 hour antidote, and who also have to pay into a cash or point system in order to eat. However, if it's proven that you are of a higher quality inmate, an inmate who is dangerous to a fairly large portion of the general public, an inmate whose abilities places you far above the norm (not trying to give spoilers), you can expect to have your collar removed, the point system expunged, and no longer have to participate in the daily competitions, all the while be given access to a bar and comfort items, with none of the guards within that area caring if you are freely moving about or causing a disturbance within another's cell.

Granted, you are then forced (although no one was really forced) to compete in a gladiator style match-up for unknown gamblers, where you could either win, get sent to the infirmary, or have a body part removed via a wheel of fate. Seriously, no one seemed to be forced into these fights, all the participants looked as if they were quite willing to fight. Must have been their aggressive natures.

Now I do understand that, with regards to uncontrollable types, you allow a sense of freedom; it's that freedom which is the reward, or the control. But at the same time, you don't just unshackle the inmates and put them in charge of the cell block either.

**I want to pause right here and say yes, we all know that this is a cartoon, and an amount of disbelief has to be granted. We also know that we've only seen one season, and are aware that additional seasons (or the reading of the story) might reveal details not shown.**

Take, oh, what's his name... the first bloodletter that was encountered, the one who could create blades. He broke out of that maximum security ultra secret cell block, trashed the neighboring section, and waltzed right back without care. There were no repercussions to be met or had. What was to prevent him or the other prisoners to escape thus? (which does beg the question of why did they attempt the breakout that they did, when apparently they could just go through the wall and be done with it).

If I were to implement a system of control, I would still allow a sense of freedom. I would also add a couple things. Continue the use of the collars; have it known that they will explode should the prisoner step into a restricted zone, or in some way immobilize the prisoner. After all, you don't want your money makers dead. Maybe lace the food and the drinks from the bar with a drug to make the prisoners more compliant, more susceptible to commands. Or, if we look at this as a dog fight, get your prisoners addicted to something, and then cut them off 24 hours before a match so they become agitated and more willing to fight, especially knowing that the reward for participating is the drug. (That's actually a good idea, treat this as a dog fight. Isn't that what's essentially happening?)

Not a counter point, but an observation. If they still required the candy to live, what were they planning to do once they escaped? I know it's been a while, and maybe I forgot details...

As a side note, this is a good idea, and I've seen this on other boards as well: controlled or on topic debates. Not flaming or trolling, just a one-on-one debate on a given subject. Too bad we can't really do that here, as we don't have enough people that frequent the place. But if we did...

There would be the opening post, a description of the current debate on hand, an introduction of the two participants, and the stance or side they are taking. I can't say who would be the first to go, but posts are done in turn, you cannot make two posts in a row. Any and every outside source must be linked to add validity to your argument.

soothsayer wrote:

As a side note, this is a good idea... ...but posts are done in turn, you cannot make two posts in a row....

It has been a while. I forgot they took the collars off of the "specials." I also don't remember if they actually kept the poison/candy thing going for them. Using your example of them just breaking through a wall and running (where they actually went back in), maybe there's a cultural thing here. Not like "Japanese would do this different", but like the writers have a twist on the plot we don't get. A side example, I just watched a damn good video the other day which was a detailed look at the film work behind 'Snowpiercer'. It explained how the director used well known camera techniques, BUT the way he did it meant something completely different to the norm. Maybe that's what's going on in Wonderland.

Maybe Crow believes he shouldn't be on the outside. We know where he started (last episode flash back), and maybe he has a sense of responsibility to stay inside to protect and serve the general population from himself. The masked character? Just frickin nuts, I think... but inside is treated well as compensation for killing and performing missions. And the way the characters are building, I'm starting to see the main kid (name?) enjoying himself, especially as he begins to learn how to use his gift. Yeah, we need more.

I agree with your observations that things just didn't seem right for a secret prison, but they did have the robot dog guard things, and of course things are not normal in a secret prison that's used to collect what are essentially mutants from a disaster who can kill basically with a thought. Only thing the first season was lacking was Mulder and Scully investigating the prison!

EDIT:: Decided to share the vid cuz it is quite informative and well done!

I'm confused now. Looking at some still images of the show, the special prisoners were still wearing collars. I swear they weren't though. I don't know, maybe it's time for a rewatch? Try to catch things that were missed before? I know they were trying to escape at the end, so there must have been a plan for the collars and poison / candy.

I think my confusion is now stemming from the fact that the collars and candy played an important part with the first half of the season, but was downplayed and hardly (if ever) mentioned in the second half. And the more I try to think about it, the less it seems I remember. An example of trying too hard?

I know one of my mistakes was watching the first two, then not getting back to it for several weeks. Once I got back into it, where things pick up in episode 3, I got hooked and binged the rest of the season in like 2 days. Easy to get the story that way, but hard to remember the details. That's another reason I'm looking for the manga on one of my manga sources. Like Freezing or Sekirei... good (damn good?) shows, but there's more to be had reading the mangas. Hell, I even started reading Arpeggio of Blue Steel and am finding enough new stuff in the first couple chapters the show didn't cover that make the later episodes make more sense. I think Deadman would be an awesome read.

Another example of not remembering things... The first scene of the whole show. Mysterious prison guy sends the masked character to wipe out kid's class, then frames the kid for it specifically to get the kid in prison. Did that happen because the prison guy knew the kid could control his blood? OR did the kid only get that power cuz the masked dude put that crystal in his chest? If he didn't have the power before, then why the hell did the prison guy send masked dude to kill the kids in the first place?! Did they ever actually cover WTF happened there? Perhaps a rewatch indeed!

Wasn't the Wretched Egg revealed to be Shiro? And since they were apparently friends while growing up... I don't know. Ahh well, time to go home. Talk about confusion? I've started watching Twin Peaks for the first time.

I either put that in my list or deeply considered it the other day, just cuz I never saw it and I always heard it was the original TV mindfuck (if you don't include who shot JR). I need to do something special with Netflix soon cuz my list is longer than most categories and I wind up forgetting just what's in there! I have some awesome sounding foreign stuff in there and I forget all about it.

Oh, and yes to your question about the Egg. I was trying to avoid that spoiler by just saying masked dude JUST IN CASE someone might pop in here who might eventually finish watching. But yeah, there's obviously something there for motivation as to why the kid was chosen for the crystal, like Shiro wanted him to be able to defend himself for a change or something, but instead of just fucking telling us, they had to give us the back story of Crow, which I'm thinking may be more important to know going forward into a possible next season. Maybe the fans decided the kid was too whiny, and Crow should become the main character. Like payback for what they did to Kamina!
(yeah, that guy down there )